Christianity (or religion in general) and politics

Now that we have a good place to have a good discussion, I'd like to raise the issue of how your religious views impact your politics. We hear a lot about "separation of church and state," as if individuals themselves are supposed to bifurcate themsleves into two people: one a religious, private person, the other a secular, public citizen. So, for example, a friend once told me that being against legalized abortion-on-demand meant that I was trying to enforce my religious views on the rest of the country. I found this interesting. First, of course, it's possible to be entirely irreligious and still against legalised abortion, or the death penalty, or any host of things. But I found the question itself interesting: should religious people leave behind their religion at the voting booth? What would it mean to do so?

I've also been interested in issues raised by the last presidential election. Without putting words in anyone's mouths, I know that a few of us here who might have voted for a different Democratic candidate chose not to vote for Obama in the last election. I've already stated on Syracuse that I did vote for him, but not without reservations (I'd be happy to explore my logic again with anyone who's interested; it's hardly unassailable abd I'd be interested in other points of view). I'm not interested so much in whether people "like" Obama, but in whether or not people felt particularly pulled by their faith to vote one way or another. What do yuo all think?

and a real test for how we might be different here than there...

If I wasn't covered in dirt, I'd write more now. But it's back to the garden plot for me.

Really? I mean, that's great! I always thougt you were a nature guy under the skin.

but I love my wife, and she wants a garden. Sigh.

You hate nature...particularly gardening?? Joe?

I'm not sure we will be able to be forum friends.

;) (The first emoticon I have ever used)

Peace

I would say that my faith impacted my politics in these specific ways: I was uncomfotable with a person who said he he was a Christian who attended the church of Rev. Wright. I also was really uncomfortable with the tone of the election where Obama was made out in some quarters to be almost a messiah. I think some people who bought into the hype (not all, but some) were those who have eschewed traditional religion who so desperately wanted a savior figure if you will. Even Obama himself used the language of an epiphany, "A light is going to come down from above and you are going to pull the lever for Obama.". I find the combation of religion and the state a scary one and there are all sorts of politicians who have used religious language in ways that were really scary. What kept running through my mind is Jesus' statement that "My kingdom is not of this world" and a phrase from Psalms which says "Put not your trust in princes". There were many reasons I did not vote for Obama and my faith impacts my vote, but the messianic language really raised red flags for me.

Funny thing, two of the big issues in the last election, abortion and embryonic stem cell research, I'm against, not for religious reasons but I base it more on science.

As for leaving your faith outside a voting booth, I'm not sure that can be done. To some, I would imagine, that would be like leaving your 'being', who you are.

between views that also have a basis in secular argument, and those that don't? I'm not sure how well I can articulate this, but it seems like there's something very different between voting on abortion, say, and voting in a law that would reflect my view of the Sabbath, for example (which is, of course, that everyone should go to Mass, eat more than one donut at the donut gathering, and nap for three or four hours. Obviously).

And Austenfan, I completely hear what you're saying--you certainly made me pause when I read your opinions back in October, because I know we were both for John Edwards way back when. I'm just so fed up with the misguided idea that being pro-abortion is the true "liberal" view. That makes no sense to me. My husband is on a one man campaign to convince self-proclaimed liberals like himself that they've got this one wrong, but I'm not sure I'm sensing a lot of progress in that area.

I do not think, just for starters, that any political party or ideology has a lock on Christian virtue. Quite the contrary. I myself tend to like Democrats and think of liberalism as wrongheaded, whereas I think conservative philosophy gets a lot more of it right, but I tend to find Republicans difficult. Go figure.

But for me, this has something also to do with faith. Because when I converted, and I mean really converted, one of the first things I noticed was that everywhere I looked, I was now catching hell as part of the problem. I'd watch the mainstream media and hear and see that Christianity was pretty wretched and that people who took orthodoxy seriously were a danger to our country. I'd pick up the magazines I subscribed to, like the New Yorker, and read article after article complaining about cardinals that stubbornly and cruelly defended human life, about the pope (JP2) and the ruthless way that he expected Catholic priests to be Catholic, about how he sneakily stacked the college of cardinals with Catholics, of all people!

That in turn led me, eventually, to seek out media resources that reflected or appreciated or that simply did not mock orthodox Christian values and beliefs. And as it turns out, these tend to be--surprise, surprise--conservative in nature. Magazines like First Things and Touchstone, for example. I've yet, seriously, to find an orthodox Christian magazine or writer that you would say falls left of center.

I'm aware that there are simplistic ways of describing what happened next, and perhaps I am a bit gun shy given the recent trolling episodes "over there," but here's how I experienced it. I found myself for the first time actually reading conservative intellectuals. Who knew they even existed? I certainly had never been asked to read any when I was an undergrad, and I sure as heck didn't get introduced to any in graduate school, where Noam Chomsky would be seen as center right. So this was a first for me, hearing what conservative intellectuals thought about the issues of our time. And what I heard made a LOT more sense to me than what I'd been reading for 15 years in the NY Times and the New Yorker.

Book reviews in the backs of those magazines made me seek out other authors who weren't always writing on religion but who did reflect the magazines' conservative thought: Roger Kimball, Theodore Dalrymple, Roger Scruton, Heather Mac Donald. I discovered the City Journal web page, which was like discovering a fountain of intellectual youth for me...

http://www.city-journal.org/

I could go on and on about this, because this has been THE story of my life over the past five years.

But a few brief things that I can close with: conservatism tends to have greater appreciation for religion than does liberalism, and that may be because conservatism tends to value tradition which tends to be the obstacle liberalism is trying to overcome. Too, conservatism is deeply informed by one idea above all others, which is that man is fallen and that human life is not perfectable in this world. That there will be no perfect kingdom on earth. Liberalism tends to dismiss the fallen nature of man and assume that utopia is possible, if you could only clear people like me off the stage. For conservatives, the golden age is in the past, Eden. For liberals it's in the future.

I really could go on and on, but none of you have paid your tuition yet.

It hasn't really changed my political views but, it has changed my view of politics. I tend to be right of center but, I am now less inclined to defend Republican politicains because the whole process seems to lower peoples standards of how we are to treat one another.

So I guess it is more that I have backed away from "party politics". I still engage in policy debates.

One thing I am more conscious of is making sure that my political views stem from my religous beliefs and not the other way around.

QUESTION FOR JOE. Is it possible to reply to a reply so it is posted under the reply? :farao: :farao: king tut, funky tut

I don't think so, but you can hit the quote button and automatically include the post you're replying to (or parts of it) in your own post.

That is good to know. :cherry: It's the bomb!

I also have moved away from feeling locked into one party or the other. When I first registered to vote I was a Republican, primarily because my father helped me fill out the form. But not long after I felt I could identify more with the Democratic Party and changed my party affiliation in my mid 20's. After the last election I thought about dropping my party affiliation all together, but I don't plan to do that at this point. I think unless there is a new party that is more than a “statement” party, I will retain my voice in one of the existing major parties. That choice is based mostly on a book that I read last summer. It was called “Render Unto Caesar” (http://www.amazon.com/Render-Unto-Caesar-Catholic-Political/dp/0385522282).

I think I mentioned the book on the other forum. In it the author referenced the documents upon which our nation was founded and our laws are based and it seems very clear that our founding fathers intended for its citizens to freely express there religious views and positions. Another aspect of the book that really stuck with me was the notion of self-censorship, which he felt many Christians were participating in by not speaking out on matters rooted in their faith.

So, my feeling was that I ultimately wanted to retain my party affiliation so as to have a way have a voice during the primary process. I tend now more than ever to be open to either side and look at each issue independently. If I had to identify a default position if I didn't have the time to adequately research an issue, it would be the position of the Catholic Church before it would be either of the political party lines. What I have personally found interesting is that there are positions that the Church holds that I have initially been inclined to oppose, but upon looking at the issue more deeply, have reversed my position on. Additionally there have been positions that I have held before the Church had said much about them, and they have subsequently expressed a position very similar.

If there were one principle put forth by a fellow Christian, upon which I tend to base the vast majority of my political opinions on it would be the “Consistent Life Ethic” put forth by Cardinal Bernadin in the 80's. I find that when considering almost any policy, it tends to point me in the right direction.

Peace to you.

stihl wrote:That is good to know. :cherry: It's the bomb!

I'm practicing the quoting, myself.

I read the book and then watched the movie. The formation of political parties happend very quickly and John Adams lamented how partisanship would be damaging to the country. He was a very smart man.

When contrasting Adams with Jefferson you have the contrast of the Traditionalist and the Progressive. Adams believed Man had learned certain truths which we could apply to governace, Jefferson believed every generation should decide for themselves how to govern.

GOP